YWC adviser steps down at Thorp's request
Chancellor asks for resignation after 'highly inappropriate' gun comment
September 18, 2009
The faculty adviser for student group Youth for Western Civilization resigned Friday at the request of Chancellor Holden Thorp after joking in an e-mail that he had a gun and knew how to use it.
The e-mail came in response to brochures speaking out against YWC, a conservative group that garnered national attention when it hosted campus speakers on illegal immigration who were met with protests. The home address of Elliot Cramer, YWC's faculty adviser and a retired psychology professor, appeared on the brochures.
Senior Nikhil Patel, president of UNC's chapter of YWC, sent an e-mail to Cramer notifying him of the brochures.
Cramer replied to the e-mail, writing "I have a Colt 45 and I know how to use it. I used to be able to hit a quarter at 50 feet seven times out of 10." Cramer also sent his response to Thorp and Haley Koch, a senior who was arrested for protesting a YWC speech in April. Her case was dismissed Monday.
Thorp then contacted Cramer and asked him to resign from the faculty adviser position. He said Cramer's statement was "highly inappropriate and not consistent with the civil discourse we are trying to achieve."
"He said it was a joke, and I said, 'this just isn't something we joke about,'" Thorp said.
Cramer said he copied Thorp and Koch to the e-mail because he wanted them to be aware of the brochures with his address. He stressed his comments about the gun were a joke.
"Oh, of course it was a joke," Cramer said. "It's one thing to say that they simply ought to contact me, but to put my address is an implied threat."
Cramer, who has been retired for 15 years, added he no longer owns a Colt .45, but said he used to be a target shooter in college. He said he thinks he owns a .22 caliber.
YWC still plans to host former U.S. treasurer Bay Buchanan in October, Patel said. Thorp said he is willing to pay for the speech as reimbursement for last April's disrupted talk by Tom Tancredo, a former Congressman who came to speak about illegal immigration.
The group's future is now uncertain. Jon Curtis, associate director of organizations and activities, said the group will have 30 days to find a new faculty adviser, which is standard for when a group loses its adviser.
"I'm contacting some professors who might be able to help," Patel said. He added he hopes to meet with Thorp to discuss Cramer's resignation, and he said he disagrees with Thorp's request.
"I thought it was kind of funny," Patel said about Cramer's gun comments. "I understood it to be a joke."
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What a bunch of pansies you
What a bunch of pansies you liberals are. Oh My God, he said GUN! Yaaaah, run for the hills. Disgusting
Again, leftward leaninig
Again, leftward leaninig college administrators miss the whole point. By telling potential troublemakers that he has the means and the ability to defend himself and his family, he may have prevented a confrontation in the first place. In fact, there may be some who are alive today because of his comment.
While they may never recognize the value of deterence, he did the responsible thing.
Cramer's gun comment
Putting Cramer's address on protest materials merely gives folks a way to write him if they care to complain directly to him. Like most people, his name and address are available through other means anyway. To perceive this as a threat to his safety is absurd. There has been no credible claim that the folks opposed to YWC constitute a serious threat to anyone's life or safety. "Joking" about shooting people after the recent tragedies at UNC and other places shows appallingly bad taste and judgment. Surely even YWC can do better.
No.
You are right that no explicit threat was made. I suppose the Mafia leaves fishes and roses because they are worried that their victims might be hungry and in need of flowers.
"There has been no credible claim that the folks opposed to YWC constitute a serious threat to anyone's life or safety."
Perhaps you missed a certain protest? I would want none of those people to have my home address.
I disagree, classof73.
I disagree, classof73. There's a noted difference in posting his professional address, disagreeing with a professional opinion, and posting his personal address because you disagree with a professional action. Even though it's easy enough to track down this information, there's a line that's crossed.
Considering the past actions of the YWC opposition when Tancredo came to speak, I 'd be concerned about a credible threat to my safety if my personal address were splashed out, rather than my academic, professional one.
Alternatively, are you willing to provide your personal contact information so that we could 'write' to you at home if someone disagrees?
Though he probably could have
Though he probably could have used more tact, this doesn't sound like the kind of thing that warrants a forced resignation. The man does have second amendment rights, and I can understand why he would be willing to assert them. Printing the man's home address in anti-YWC pamphlets is an inexcusable scare tactic. I don't agree with a lot of what YWC stands for, but those who protest against it have been totally unwilling to engage them intellectually--instead, they've resorted to intimidation and force. I think it's amazing that their faculty adviser can write that he will protect himself against intruders and be fired, yet all the protesters have faced no real sanctions.
I've been skimming the UNC
I've been skimming the UNC Instrument of Governance, which talks about Student and Group responsibilities. Of particular interest to me was two of the you 'shall nots':
k. Engaging in violent, forceful, threatening, intimidating, or disruptive conduct, or inciting others to engage in such individual or collective conduct, that willfully disrupts any normal operation, function, or activity of the University or any of its organizations, personnel, or guests.
l. Engaging in conduct, or inciting others to engage in conduct that improperly restrains freedom of movement, speech, assembly, or access to premises or activities by any individual who is a member of the University community or guest of the University or of any of its organizations in connection with that individual’s performance of legitimate activities or duties within or at the University.
and a explicit clarification that student groups are held to this:
4. Group Offenses. Societies, clubs, or similar organized groups in or recognized by the University are subject to the same standards as are individual members of the University community. The commission of any offense within this section by such a group or its members acting in concert, or the failure of such a group to exercise preventive measures relative to violations of the Honor Code by its members shall constitute a group offense that may be sanctioned in addition to sanctions imposed for offenses by individual students.
Even though it's fairly trivial to track down someone's home information, I'd argue that by handing out pamphlets with someone's home contact information, rather than their professional might cross the line of intimidation. Specifically when addressing professional concerns, the mode of contact first should be the professional contact information.
Now, it's entirely possible that a student wasn't responsible, or that a group did not act in concert to do it. However, if University resources or officially recognized groups did engage in these intimidating tactics... it might once again be the responsibility of the University to step in.
I've not seen the pamphlets, but I can understand that the comments were likely made in a non-serious context. (I can also see that the comments are likely inappropriate). However, if YWC is facing some sanctions for the gun comment (by losing their sponsor), and given that the protests against this group have been less than peaceful in the past... the message that he wants to protect his home and family is an understandable one, even if it's not at 50 feet with a Colt.
For those interested, the text of the Instrument can be found at: http://instrument.unc.edu/instrument.text.html -- it's an enlightening read. I sincerely hope that a faculty member who is committed to allowing these principles, and the principles of an open dialogue and multiple viewpoints will step in to allow the YWC their voice, even if they disagree politically and ideologically.
I see nothing wrong
I don't know the whole background of this incident, but we are all entitled to self defense. I don't think his address was distributed for people to send him Hallmark cards.
As I said, I don't have all the information as to what happened, but from what was written here, he definitely should not have stepped down.
hmm
Seems to me that the ability to "hit a quarter at 50 feet seven times out of 10" is not generally a self defense technique.
...
Sounds like people just need to chill.